What about IndyNews, Alan? They embody the "citizen journalism" idea, yet get so little interest in the mainstream. I fyou want to know what's really going on, check them out.

I don't know, Gord. A thousand iWaterCoolers edited by PEOPLE who really like ALL CAPS is hardly the dawning of a new era. Can you name a story they have broken that changed anything?

I am inclined to support the idea that a "professional journalist" credential is a progressive move. In much the same way as other professional organizations govern the behaviour of their members it might instill a level of credebiklity that the average consumer can trust without relying on the need for insight into the quality of the newspaper, station or journalist.

At a minimum it would provide an elevated level of accountability for issues of bias, inaccuracy and general muck-raking.

Of course the chaleenge would be to prevent an elitist organization and make the professional credential available to all those who qualify and not just those with the money and the masters.

I think citizen journalism is a lot about "credebilkity" and wonder what shadowy organizations are really behind it. Besides, do we really trust "citizen doctors" or "citizen police"? Hasn't the duddiness of the concept of "citizen journalism" proven itself? What would it take to make it clearer?

Alan, it's more incremental change than anything. They're documenting loads of things that the "legitimate" press simply ignores.

Paul, you're dreaming if you think that "professional" organizations provide more accountability for anything, let alone bias and inaccuracy. During the 90's recession, the first position to go in the vast majority of newspapers were the fact checkers and copy editors. In these lean, mean times, there are so few newsroom staff that all of the checking and proofreading is left to the individual writer. Speaking as one with experience, it's impossible to properly proof your own material. You MUST have a disinterested person check it for flow and errors. That simply doesn't happen any more and the public suffers for it.

Hmm..."incremental change"...prove that please with examples of an effect. Otherwise it is just busy work.

Not directly related to your post, Alan, but I thought this is a good spot to mention that I occasionally watch "the 'fax" on the local cable channel - a pretty darn good local interest show by the Kings journalism bunch. The cable channel provides them with free air time, I believe.

Gordo, it still seems reasonable to me that a professional licensing body for journalists would create a counterweight to the business interests of the media organizations engaged in reporting the news. Perhaps if one existed then elimination of the fact checkers would have been a more difficult prospect if it might have jeopardized the licenses of the organization and its "PJs".

My experience with professional licensing leads me to believe that it is imperfect but leagues better than not at all.

Professional licensing tends to be used as a weapon more than a tool, Paul. Witness what engineering accreditation bodies, teacher's and doctor's colleges to due immigrants in Canada. A friend of my a wife's is a Russian immigrant and highly qualified doctor. She was forced to sign a paper upon entering Canada that she would not attempt to practice medicine here without doing her education over again. I heard an interview with a British family physician who was attempting to move to Belleville, ON (a designated under-serviced area). His accreditation has been held up by the college of Physicians and surgeons for close to 10 years! For no good reason, whatsoever. The college just isn't all that interested in making foreign doctors welcome here.

That may be so but it does not address the quality question, just limitation of membership.

Personally, to rewind a bit, even though I know quite a few journalistas from my college days, I stopped reading the papers a few years back. Once iNews became fast and readily available, I saw no need to pay $1 a day for a advertising filled dead tree that had bias based on that years editor's political preferences. I had to dig through the boring tedious stories about ribbon cuttings (who the heck ever goes to ribbon cuttings???) and BIG CHEQUE givings (WHO THE HECk goes to these too???) and obits and births to find a few interesting articles on anything I find remotely un-boring. This is why magazines became my choice for interest reading.. And iMagazines when they are found, which is all the time now.

And blogs? Well, they are for the most part all biased and written by persons with too much spare time on their hands and an axe to grind with someone or other ;) Citizen Anything usually means Poorly Made bbut Well Intentioned Copy of Anything.

Yes - I agree that prof licensing bodies can behave as real autocracies; but a body that must give credential to journalists with a very broad spectrum of academic and life-experience backgrounds, the opportunities for elitism are diminished - especially if they are focussed mostly on journalistic ethics and less on technical proficiency.

'And blogs? Well, they are for the most part all biased and written by persons with too much spare time on their hands and an axe to grind with someone or other'
'usually means Poorly Made bbut Well Intentioned'

I know you're out to get me, gordo you rat bastard, and you think my blog is the worst this side of Kingston, but do you have to do it publicly? And who says I am well intentioned?

I find it hilarious that everyone assumes there is no professionalism to "citizen journalism", so it must get the skeptical, jaundiced eye; but "citizen farming", that's completely different -- absolutely everyone is a professional <i>there</i>. No skepticism at all toward the guy down the road whose agricultural qualifications may not extend beyond completion of high school and being heir to the family-owned farm.

I said citizen anything. Remember, I'm the guy that likes big government because the average Joe doesn't know what is good for them.

"I find it hilarious..."<p>Your comment makes no sense. Farmers are professional and highly regulated. And citizen journalism, my hypothesis goes, is neither and that the content is the proof of that pudding.<p><b>Update:</b> My comment may make no sense either - I am having trouble understanding if there is irony in the italicization of "there" in Chris's comments. If possible, please clarify.<p>And, no, none of you get to make comments in comments and that is just too bad for you.

i saw on the world weekly news yesterday that hillary's running mate is to be bigfoot. there was a picture and everything.

it struck me that the problem with that story from that publication's point of view is that even seriously crazy people would not buy into that. i mean the picture was from harry and the hendersons. it's a piece of comedy.

and wasn't the wwn a paper for crazy people -- as much as it amused the rest of us? which, in turn, leads me to believe it's in trouble because blogs and citizen news are the new wwn. poor wwn has to publish pictures of hillary and bigfoot, as the shot of some annoymous wolf boy won't cut it anymore. i agree with al. there's alway been news from unreputable sources. people make choices. there's more choices. i don't that more choice necessarily means people are more stupid, and that, consequently, good journalism is in trouble.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding gordo. It was gorthos and he was referring to everyone else's blogs, not mine. Makes sense. My perceptions were altered by the rather large cup of coffee mixed with chocolate I was slurping at the time--delusional.

I am witness to a strange new phenomena, using one of our oldest media techniques. My neighbors next door publish several interesting niche papers, including a countywide local news weekly and different parenting publications. These are available free at a million stores and lobbies, plus on the net. They have expanded nearly every year, using old fashioned paper and print. The marketing model is pure 1600s: people like to pick up and read a free newspaper. The competing city daily stinks and has for some time: hardly any national news, which is old anyway, compared to the net or tv, local is no better, and the price per issue has just gone up, further sinking revenues . This is why radio remains appealing: even with ads, it is free.
In sum, media outlets change and progress, but remnants of old media remain. You just hope that the truth comes out on top, unless it is clearly something like the Onion or my blog.

There are lots of regulations governing the specifications of the <i>produce</i>, its sanitation, marketing, and so on. I'd be interested if you could show me what sort of professional regulation and qualifications, a la OBA or CPSO, exist for farmers.

What sort of "farm exam" do they have to pass? And what collegial body of peers reviews their work and revokes their professional certification when they fall afoul of its self-policed regulations?

I have lived on farm property for two years now (ending in weeks praise Bob) and I have learned some startling things.

1. Farmers typically have no money. They are very inefficient, do not modify/expand/specilaize their operations unless forced.
2. Most farms DO have an illegal dump somewhere on their property contrary to their Farmer Rebel Associations claims.
3. Farmers work long hours intersperced with hours of sleep, watching nascar, and thinking about farming.
4. farmers have little education in farming apart from what was passed down by their parental units and what they have been forced to learn through government requirements to maintain their "certifications" or licenses.
5. Farmers do not typically believe or care about how their operations afect people downwind/downstream from their operations because they still live in this 1700s world where they are the feeders of cities and should therefore be given leeway

Citizen Journalists are the digital information farmers of the 21st century, yet short of a dificult court battle for libelous statements made, they are unregulated/unchecked.

Does it not suffice it to say that neither a professional journalist or a professional farmer need a degree but are subject otherwise to processional standards in their product? Citizen journalism does not as it is not, in fact, journalism at all.

I concur

I'd substitute a different word for "citizen journalist", Alan: freelancer. The news business runs on them, yet they have few professional credentials, if any and do the vast majority of the real news work. Find a story, sell it to the highest bidder.

Gorthos is right, newspapers have been crap since the 90's and are struggling to be relevant beyond the retirees and politicians.

I'm not sure what professional standards applied when Walter Duranty falsified reports from the Soviet Union during the Stalin-created Ukranian famine (1932-1933). What professional censure did he or the <i>New York Times</i> receive for that misdeed?

There may be so-called professional standards for journalism, but it is entirely at the discretion of your editor and publisher as to whether you get to continue in their employ and use the word "journalist" to describe your line of work. I suppose that is some kind of oversight, but really, no regulatory penalties accrue to them if they continue to employ someone who has strayed outside "journalistic standards". The penalty is financial (in reduced subscriptions and circulation) if at all. And the at-fault journalist is at liberty to continue his career at another publication, nothing prevents that. Not like being found guilty of malpractice or disbarment by the CPSO or OBA.

Try googling "characteristics of a profession". (It's difficult to even find a concensus on the basics, so I haven't bothered to just copy a list here. You'll have to peruse some for yourself.)

It's possible for journalism to be a profession, but journalists need to aim higher.

And not changing the subject but I simply can't go through the day without knowing what a Farmer Rebel Association is... gorthos?

I am not a farmer and I know little about the science of it but I think that Gorthos is awash in unfair stereotype and bias. He hates living in the country, we get it. I grew up in a farming community and have recently relocated to another. I have many friends who are farmers and only one watches Nascar (btw my uncle, a doctor, is a huge fan - is that enough to blow the 'nascar' is for rednecks tag?). Some are rich, some are poor. I expect that can be said of many professions. Every single one that I know has taken some form of post secondary education. Some have degrees from Guelph, others college diplomas from Kemptville, and the rest have a few "short courses" under their belts. ALL of them care deeply for the land they steward and the food they produce. As far as prof. status, I understand that there is a P.Ag. available to those with a degree but I admit I know little about their governance. I know Gorthos personally and I beleive he is babbling, I challenge him to give me a name of a farmer he has actually spoken to that showed him his illegal dump or talked about not giving a damn about the smell of his organic compost.

BR:
My father in law
the guy next door
the guy behind the treefarm
the guy behind my old house in Rednersville
My former employer

I think perhaps teh area you live in is different however the Belleville/PEC area is awash in 60+ year old farmers who have never gone beyond high school/

I have no problem with any argument by which the concept of "professionalism" is challenged. But then do not call it citizen journalism. Freelancer is even worse as there are very few bloggers who do that. At best it is third-rate op/ed piece drafting for rural weekly newspapers. Otherwise known as the iWaterCooler...or maybe iBarStool.

For Chris:
http://www.ruralrevolution.com/website/
these people have in the past actually advocated physically resisting and restraining government inspectors. This is why our MHSAO trainers train Ministry of Agriculture inspectors for physical confrontations..

Gorthos, you're educated enough to know better than to draw sweeping conclusions based on a small sample. Your horseshit disappoints me.

<ol>
<li>Farmers have no money because consumers demand rock-bottom prices for their food. If a 4-litre bag of milk costs about $4 retail, the farmer who produced it earns about 25 cents. The don't expand/upgrade unless forced because they cannot afford to.
<li>Please expand on "illegal dump". Do you mean the odd rotting piece of equipment? It costs money to dispose of things. See point 1.
<li>Nascar is the opiate of illiterate buffoons. For every farmer that you name watching Nascar, I can name three working on political reforms, environmental issues or reading Chaucer.
<li>Are you honestly saying that classroom instruction is better than hands-on learning? A successful farm takes a mixture of both. That's why U Guelph exists.
<li>See my comments about Nascar. Responsible farmers have been taking care of the country environment longer than government regulation existed. Development screws things up, not the other way around.
</ol>

I think you are going now each show how what you have written is relevant to the question and get back on track.

I was simply responding to a uneducated slur of several relatives. My apologies, Alan.

That site is hilarious, thanks gorthos. The article about future farmers being herded onto Farmer Reservations was a real knee-slapper. All they are missing is the "Red and Black" song from the Valley Players of Almonte production of <i>Les Miserables</i>.

I have never really understood the need to be the One Man with Hypertension fighting The Suffocation of Government Bureaucracy. It's more effective to be the calm apparatchik on the inside -- who has the power to guide/change internal processes -- than to be the screaming guy on the outside with the Bristolboard-and-sharpie sign. Co-opt the apparatchiks and you have change. Co-opt the angry guys and all you have is an abundance of hand-lettered Bristol board.

I agree entirely, Chris. And there must, then, be a concurrent reflection back to the failure of freelance citizen journalist operating on the outside.<p>hint.

Right. Well that's the critical difference, isn't it? Citizen <i>freelancers</i> are at their best when they write about that which they know a great deal -- in other words when they are writing as insiders. When they write as outsiders (or in cut/paste mode) then it's basically the same product as iBarStool.

But like regular journalists, the citizen freelancers do not restrict themselves to writing about that which they know. And like regular journalists, sometimes they don't get appropriate background on a story because they don't have the contacts or, like their paid media brethren, do not know enough about the subject to intelligently divine whom they should be asking, and about what.

In general I am more willing to forgive an unpaid freelancer for not getting critical detail, because of his/her amateur status. It's another thing for a paid professional to not to dig deeply enough or get sufficient background.

I would liken it to a guy who got first aid training ten years ago happening upon an accident scene and rendering aid. Maybe he messes up a little because he's not using the most modern methods, but then he is not professionally obligated to be right on top of all those details. As far as the law is concerned he fulfilled his duty of care by rendering what aid he could. A GP on the other hand has a greater duty of care (due to his job and due to the fact that they are obligated to stay up-to-date on medical practice and procedure). A GP could not walk away and think about calling EMS like the Average Joe could, he is duty-bound to do <i>something</i>. And he can get away with less screwups than the guy with half-forgotten first aid training.

I know there's more involved in terms of liability, but that is my very generalised view from 35,000 feet.

(P.S. I know what a rules-lawyer you are, Alan, so assume for the sake of argument that the GP is within his practice area, the injuries are not outside his skill base, and the patient has requested aid, and so on. There is no generalised legal duty to rescue, of course).

Actually, in Quebec there is a legal requirement to lend aid, Chris. Citizen first aiders who are found to hve passed by without lending aid can be held liable.

Given what passes for journalism in the 21st century, I'm not sure that citizen journalism deserves the disdain that it's being given here. If anything, the major media outlets, the much vaunted "professional journalists" should be the target. They journalists know better, but too often, they're simply hacks. Look at Bill O'Reilly or <i>anyone</i> on CNN since the millennium.

Keeping in mind, of course, that I have yet to be directed to a single example of an amateur web-based journalist that could fall under the word disdain or not. There is Living in Dryden but that is more like a one man aggregator with little actual first person reporting. Once in a while a blogger will go to a public event and report on what was witnessed. But who is sitting in Council committee meeting and actually blogging the news? I think some has to point out one before we can hang the word disdain on the movement.

Lisa Williams sorta blogs that way in and about Watertown Mass.

I am with Gordo 110% there in his criticism of the major media. For instance, every time there is an aviation-related story in print, TV or radio, they grab the nearest retired airline guy with a pilot's license regardless of whether or not he is type-qualified on the particular aircraft, knows the particular capabilities of the aircraft, knows that airline's internal procedures/regulations, and so on. All we get to see is "aviation expert, retired airline pilot". And then page after page (or hour after hour) of absolutely asinine speculation wherein said expert displays his ignorance of the particulars.

And reporting on military matters is far, far worse. They drag out retired admirals to hold forth on ground campaigns or air force capabilities. Guys who have been out of the uniform since the Cold War ended. And then they go on about how the campaign will look (assuming that we use the technology and tactics available when they last wore blue or green to work).

I could put up with this from guys who do it in their spare time. But when this is your beat, your bread and butter... there should be a little more effort on display, no?

Try Orato, Alan. It's a Canadian operation with correspondents around the world, including two with credentials for the Pickton trial in BC.

That is interesting. This correspondent with two stories up front is a journalist posting as a citizen - cheater. This story is a report by someone involved in it - nice but not journalism. The second to fifth sports stories are from June 2006 or older with the top story being from four weeks ago.

I hope I'm not supposed to be surprised that you haven't changed your mind, Alan. You wouldn't be you if you did. ;-)

Call it what you like, sites like Orato are the future. Give these folks some basic instruction in the five W's, a copy of CP style and journalism ethics/responsibilities and the mainstream media will be left in the dust. Where they deserve to be.

Knowing what I was taught, I simply cannot believe the drek and half-baked nonsense that makes it into "print" these days. The basic law of journalism is "Comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable", but there are damned few outlets that do that any more and almost none of the ones that do are major organizations.

How could you have expected something with months old stories would change anyone's mind? This is clearly a trend of the recent blog bubbly past which never got legs.

Alan, you're still suffering under the delusion that today's date makes a news piece relevant.

Good Lord, Gord. There is no limit with you sometimes. You'd stick up a picture of a horse when I wanted information about cars then call me a wheelist for not accepting it.

Wouldn't that be "horseless carriage"?

You're right, Alan. My apologies. Being home sick has turned me into David Janes, today.

I pride myself on having few limits. ;-)

You are forgiven seeing as you played the Neo-Citron card.

Here's an amusing hybrid: The Tyee. I say hybrid because the editor - David Beers - and a number of the staffers are ex-Southam types. It is funded, to a degree by the BC Federation of Labour - but lets me write occasionally. Their take is that the MSM is too right wing which is always fun. And they do drink the Kyoto kool-aid. However, it is a well written, well edited, piece of citizen journalism.

One of the amusing things about it is that they run articles on things like "Notes to the Provincial Budget" which are too long and too complicated for the quick hit "journalism" of the Vancouver Sun or the tabloid 200 words or less Daily Province. There is real reporting and real digging.

There is no way that these folks could have started this up on dead trees. That new fangled iPaper makes it possible.

That isn't bad but I can't call that <i>citizen</i> journalism as it is journalism just that it exists in the land of iDigialia. It is like a small magazine like <i>New Maritimes</i> that was around in the 1980s which dug into stories deeply or a monthly paper like Independent Voice here in Kingston. <p>Citizen journalism can't simply be the opposite of the boogie man of convenience labeled as MSM (aka thing I don't like/understand). It has to be the proof of the web 2.0 liberation of the individual. Hence its absence.

And this was the point at which my head exploded.

Alan: please allow this post to stay, I shalleb brief.
Gordo: I'll email you tomorrow. BR drove me to prove a point beyond what I mayhap should have. I am basing my belief on my experiences living in this rural community and the surrounding lands fo 31 or my 39 years. As much as I would like to answer your points, it will not be on-topic and no use debating here and being deleted..

As far as on topic goes, there was an interview on CBC today with a "citizen journalist" in the form of a former streetworker (or is that walker) who is "reporting" on the Pikton (Picton?) trial for an online zine of sorts. She failed miserably to explain how her bias as a former sex-trade worker and friend of two of the killed persons and her desire to show their side and good characters would be overshadowed by her desire to be non-biased in the reporting of facts...

Your collective going off track and failing to address the point simply confirms my own pre-conceived notions - which, of course, is the entire point of this blog.

The main difference between blogging and journalism isn't professionalism, because of course, there are many dolts in journalism (and some would say that it isn’t in fact a profession, but a trade -- I read that somewhere in the Globe and Mail), and nothing is stopping smart people, or knowledgeable people, or even journalists themselves from blogging. The main difference isn’t professionalism, it’s a relative lack of constraints. So while Mark Starowicz can say (to Senate Transport and Communications Committee) about television programming in Canada that:

“...Canadian programming is strangled daily. Not because Canadians don't want it. Not because we can't compete with the world. But because it's not the most efficient return on investment, or not the most efficient demographic targeting device to sell consumer products. Why does it have to be? How did the marketing heads of Coca Cola and Canadian Tire become the people who decide what appears on Canadian television? I understand and accept that if a Canadian program isn't popular, has not found a significant audience, it should probably die. But I resent that a Canadian program will not even be born, even if it reaches a large audience, if I can't prove it will sell shampoo.”-
(http://www.cbc.radio-canada.ca/speeches/20030428.shtml)

While Starowicz can say this about commercial television in Canada, this is clearly not true of online opportunities.

It seems to me that freedom to create is not nothing. Having a big open space to play in, is not nothing. In answer to your question though: One thing that blogs do well is local coverage. Not coincidentally, local coverage is what has been increasingly dropped from news in many areas as a cost saving measure over the last few decades. Here is a site, for instance, that does local blogging: http://placeblogger.com/. On the other hand, I don’t actually concede the point that it’s up to us to prove the worth of a big open space by finding the future masterpieces in it today. Just as it wasn’t up to the founders of Canada or the US to prove the worth of their country in everyday details circa 1776/1867. The internet is a work in progress. “Hah!” I can hear those early critics proclaim, “Those colonials are all just a bunch ridiculous yobs. They’ll never amount to much, mark my words!” Right.

I think it’s important to take note of the fact that this contrast between journalism and citizen journalism occurs in a particular context: When media barons started taking over newspapers and television stations and merging companies in the 1980s and 90s to form huge media empires, they looked for a way of squeezing more money out of the business. The fastest way, it seemed, was to fire tonnes of staff and concentrate on soft news, fluff, and opinion -- leaving a huge portion of the real news to be done by freelancers and news services. Sometimes they hired a handful of genuine experts to write columns as well. But all of this cost a great deal less than actual journalism which involves real digging, fact checking, and investigative work by several paid staff over a long period of time (and that’s for each story). Thus, after many years of cuts, it became easier for any old bozo to mimic what was actually published in the papers because a lot less of it was what my father (an old time newspaperman) would call journalism. Most people can write fluff and opinion (though many can’t spell) and many don’t need experts to sort through the five or six stories that are being reprinted in all the papers of a given chain. Journalism, contrary to a recent poll of journalists, is not high art, though it can be complex and full of insight etc.. Anyway, if we want more news, the solution is not to blame all our problems on the internet. Instead, we need to change the laws governing media concentration and beef up the CBC.

Similarly, I can still hear those that laughed at the Parisian pneumatic tube mail system of the 1860s not to mention 1909 music by telephone and the speaker chair.<p>Until you can define citizen journalism with any certainty and agreement, praising its success now or in the near future is a bit weak.

As is running it down.

If applying a critical analysis with solid illustrations of similarly failed concepts is "running down" then, again, all that is being confirmed is that wobbly but widely hugged concepts like <i>citizen journalism</i> are most likely a fraud.

There needs to be some middle ground between praising things to the skies and saying it's all crap. I am sympathetic to journalists, but I don't think we should be totally uncritical. Likewise, I think a lot of what is on the internet is awful, but some of it isn't. I think there is a lot of nasty chatter in the press about the internet, not because the internet is a crocheted nose bag, but because it does represent a threat. I think the threat comes from the attractiveness of some of what is out there. Now, we can all sit back at sneer at the many ninnies. Of course, that is always possible. But it proves nothing. And I've always thought that there is something a little sinister in trying to shut stuff down.

I praise not the journalist and have said I am inline to kick at processionalism. I am merely pointing out the <i>citizen journalism</i> is the Emperor with No Clothes 2.0.<p>As for "sneering" that is not anything associated with me or anyone else so it is without merit. We deal in illustrations and argument only.

I still don't concede your premise that we must prove the worth of the internet *to you* using current examples. In any case, as you have pointed out, confirming your own preconceived notions is the point of your blog, so it would be an impossible task.

You have fallen into the trap of rudeness and have been led astray. You do not have to prove anything to me but it is not a premise, it is a courtesy - if you are going to write on the blog of another on a topic, do the other readers the favour of being on point and engaging rather than judging from high as no one really recognizes anyone else as being on high in such a case, just the sidelines. If you cannot prove your argument, check if you actually have an argument and then see if there is proof and add that, too. But you know this.

Back to the issue, I have 1.5 years of broadcasting schoolin' including the basics of radio journalism.. Being trained as a host rather than a journalist, there was less taught to me on the ethics of "reporting" and more on the "announcing techniques and writing" bit, however, even with the modicum of ethical reporting I have, most blogs I read are to say the least, biased to the point that a tabloid would be more likely to print the articles than a real paper.

That being said, John Baird eats kittens. It's a fact. My uncle saw him.

The philospher meets the lawyer in a clash of titans along the lines of Godzilla and King Kong meeting on the streets of Tokyo.
Alan, time for a new topic or gp?

There is no GP until a GP is picked.

Lessee, Bush's speech tonight, on the state of the Union? I'm all for it, the fur could fly around here!
Because I doubt you want to discuss the Oscar nominations.

Gary: I gurantee you I will not be watching Bush's speech. I have dishes to do and a spouse to accost.

I was hoping someone would pick the electoral process for this week's GP. My grade 8 social studies was a long time ago and I could do with a refresher.

Why not you pick it? You are a someone. Anyway, I would prefer GPs to be about Canada for now.

Ah! Canada GPs. Freeze me out, OK, I understand.

Should anyone be interested Marian aka Lisa Howard has lost it over the above. Beware, however, as she bites.<p>I can't imagine what caused this belly ache.

I thought about it. Even went so far as composing a comment to that effect. But the political discussions still intimidate me somewhat.

They shouldn't - it is just about what you see. <p>The whole point of these group projects is to get away form the angry accusatory yammering of those who would post positions as bait. If there is an ability to collaboratively work through the idea it may be that others can show you what you might not know about an idea that is initially attractive or not attractive.

Interesting to observe: cm is exactly the kind of calm and intelligent commenter that Alan is encouraging here. I, for one, have tried to follow Alan's path, because I see the tone and value of the project, although I get tempted to slip and stray. I shall try to keep my inner jokester at bay, using it where most appreciated.

To be fair Alan, you do tend to look at anything web- or tech-related like Abraham (Grandpa) Simpson:

<i><blockquote>Grandpa: Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. P.S. I am not a crackpot.

Marge: Grandpa, this flag only has 49 stars on it
Grandpa: I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah!</blockquote></i>

The internet has to prove itself to you day after day. Fortunately it does not have human emotions (and if it did, you wouldn't be the one stuck with the therapist's bills anyway). There's nothing wrong with a certain skepticism but the lengths to which you take it do get pretty entertaining sometimes.

But you will agree that the post is about citizen journalism and the request to define and exemplify it. Not the internet. <p>And why shouldn't I be entertaining? You think I believe half the stuff I write? If I have a secret, it is that I am a great fan of Tristram Shandy, an early example of structural criticism of the novel. What would it look like if a blog were subject to similar experimentations?<p>PS: and remember - I am actually a hot co-ed at Ohio State.

Well you might have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those darned meddling kids!

Hot co-eds at Ohio State don't root for Morton. They've never even <i>heard</i> of Morton. Man U, on the other hand...

The hottest co-eds at Ohio State certainly root for Morton. I know this as I was once hugged by a Danish man when I was wearing the sweater.

While I fear that the Danish man has sung on this topic: I'll give you three sterling examples of citizen journalists.

Tom McQuire on Plame (which has been a legal confection from beginning to what appears to be its near end.) Marcie Wheeler covering the Libby trial at Firedoglake.

And, more or less in a class by himself, K.C. Johnson on the Duke "not a rape" case. Johnson has been simply brilliant following a story which MSM for PC reasons has yet to get right.

All three of these people are not - so far as I know - J-school grads. Johnson is a history prof.

It is interesting that the two issues covered are both legal. I suspect the pacing of investigations and trials lends itself to part time citizen journalism. <i>Pace</i> Court-TV, even the most sensational trial in real time has long stretches of total tedium. Quick transcripts, PDFs of the filings and the pressers organized by DA's running for election, are the grist citizen bloggers can grind exceedingly fine.

I thought I'd chime in here with Radley Balko "The Agitator" who's out there covering police abuses of power, SWAT team over use and over kill, innocent men on death row, .... I'm not sure if journalist is the right term exactly for what he does, as he actually goes out and gets involved in these cases. Maybe activist-journalist? Still, one of the most amazing blogs out there.

Those are interesting as inactivity is usually what characterizes claims of citizen journalism. The structures of law compared to, say, municipal councils does make it both easier and sensational to keep the interest going. Without pay or resources, having an ax to grind helps, too. But these are good. Their fewness still makes the point, however.

Ah, Alan, now you are sounding like a global warming maven for whom no sparrow falls save to prove the undying truth of climate change.

The fewness suggests we are at the beginning.

But, just for fun, take a look at North Vancouver Politics which, while a bit of a group effort and often opinion driven, covers North Vancouver and the district of North Vancouver in a way which is simply not available in the MSM.

That is great. Is it just that BC's main city is all agog with citizen journalists and we who may freeze for all they care are Neanderthals?

Going through the scrapings to find actual citizen journalism,<ul><li>I have to reject Jay's suggestion of Tom McQuire as he is not actually doing anything but cutting and pasting boring (even if correct) "MSM"=evil (<i>imagine!</i>) Gotcha-ism. As we all know, the Libby case will bring out the finger-pointery and it won't be about "<i>duh-nuttin-happent</i>" 'cause something happened.</li><p><li>I really like <a href="http://northvancouverpolitics.com/">North Vancouver Politics</a> as there is primary thinking and finding out happening.</li><p><li>K.C. Johnson of Durham in Wonderland also seems to being primary work like going to a meeting to describe what is being witnessed. While I suspect "the story which MSM for PC reasons has yet to get right" is also not being gotten right by the ax-grinders, this is at least hopeful.</li></ul>I am starting a list to the right.