Gen X at 40

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Ben aka the Tiger in Winter -

Now, see, that's something I could vote for. As could most of the moderate conservatives I know.

Disagree with some of your critiques of the right.

Agree with your military ideas, along with ending corporate welfare -- makes for stronger companies in the long run.

My major grievance with the post: baseball is _not_ a leftist game. It is resolutely capitalist. Any game that draws George Will as one of its major writers and George W. Bush as a candidate for commissioner _cannot_ be a leftist one. ;-)

Alan -

Its the game that is leftist, not the personalities (remember the death of celebrity is a cornerstone): team, taking turn, plays that require each to do their part in order. Plus it is a central New York creation. Like soccer no boss on the field. The collective wins or dies on the effort of each. Utility players win games by doing their small bit when called on.

Ben aka the Tiger in Winter -

I'd say it isn't as collectivist as other team sports -- much of it comes down to showdowns between one pitcher and one batter. Much more of a chance for individual glory than, say, football or basketball, by my lights. :-)

Alan -

Baseball illustrates diveristy without authoritarianism. The pitcher is not the quarterback. He is the hero who steps forward yet (in the purest form) also pulls his weight at the plate. The pitcher also illustrates mortality as he is one of the few players in sport who by definition most often leaves the game or enters it late. He plays only every few games. He cannot lead single-handed yet, like Shilling, can expose us to the immortal. It is a balanced community.

Ben aka the Tiger in Winter -

It's also the game that lends itself most easily to books and theories and philosophy...

Alan -

Thoughtful repose is one of the conditions of the centre/left.

Wayne -

Not really, Ben. Have you perused the bookshelves in the Golf sections lately? I have read many, and none have helped. And, I haven't put a dent in the numbers that are in publication. Golf would keep the Democrats busy for quite a while trying to figure it out...good passtime over the next 4 long,lonely years.

Ben aka the Tiger in Winter -

Ah, golf. Always forget that that's a sport.

(runs away ducking thrown objects)

Hans -

Hey, Al!

Not bad for a night's work!

You should email it James Carville. He might actually be able to implement it.

Don't bother sending it Warren Kinsella, though. I don't think he would understand it.

I don't know who in the NDP you could send it to, but they could sure use it!

Wayne -

Being a (and "the") Right game, I wonder why Europe keeps kicking the crap outta the U.S. in Ryder Cup action.

SayNay? -

Al, could you expound on your statement:"Parents are not in charge of small fifedoms. They are in charge of future adults"? What are you trying to say here?

Alan -

Families are not autonomous, individuals are. People are raised best in good families and as such are a cornerstone but the task of the family is to raise them to be individual citizens, adults - they are not <i>the</i> cornerstone. Limits on parental rights are good but at about the level they are now. The court can intervene where parents pose a danger though criminal or extreme religious behavior such as preventing blood transfusions. Laws require them to be educated to minimum standards. Children enjoy rights but most of all they have the right to make it to adulthood as little hindered by their parents as is acceptable.

SayNay? -

"...as little hindered by their parents as is acceptable.." Acceptable to whom? Your ideal "state"? And by whose standards? Yours? Or whatever is "fashionable" today?

Can you see how this might be taken by middle America as the left's attack on the "family"?

Alan -

You are something of a dingbat on this point. Just try discussing things as opposed to parroting. You provide the response to your own point: "and by whose standards? Yours? Or whatever is "fashionable" today?" <p>It is your wacky dreams that are fashionable today. The era of paranoia can end as the right has triumphed. But what will it do as it is only a plan of negation, or response. Try to discuss being for something as poosed to listening to the jerk of your knee...or rather someone else's knee.

SayNay? -

Well no, you throw these ideas out there wrapped up in language which is (you'll like this) "nuanced" - I just want a little clarification. Maybe problems with nuance, is that it leads to suggestion of a hidden agenda. When you talk about limits to parental rights "about at the level they are now", are you just talking about state intervention to protect the child from "physical" harm? or something else? For instance, would your proposal support parents being able to raise their children according to the parents values,let's say, religious values, where the parents views on morality may conflict with the currently held views of the state? I mean, you might as well confront this head on.

Alan -

Not if the values of the self-described religious group were abusive like restricting blood transfusion as some groups promote or fulsome use of the rod as was seen in a recent criminal case in PEI. The right of a parent to teach values has limits which are met when the wellness of the child is at risk. The right to indoctrinate comes after the right to be free from opression. <p>But by lumping everything as "religious values" you fail to express that nuance and hide your own hidden agenda. There is not such thing as "religious values" or "Christian values" but particular ethics of particular congregations and traditions. I would be considered perhaps abusive and definitely nuts if I imposed strict Mennonite ways on my kids coming as I do from outside of that tradition.<p>Please just define what you think rather than poke at my statements. That way we get to avoid your tedious little trapping game and actually have a discussion. Learning to discuss will require you to put something postive actually on the table to be reviewed by others.

SayNay? -

Look, no desire to be tedious or trap - no agenda. Quite frankly, and you can believe this or not, I find much of the "black and white" right wing conservative positions as you might find in a group like the Christian Coalition of America, troubling.

You're talking about a plan to swing middle America. Your list above is a good one and inclusion of "the family" shows insight, as one might argue "the family" is the building block of middle America.

But your comments suggested to me almost a starting point on "the family" of a distrust of parents to raise their children properly ("parents are not in charge of small fifedoms", the "hinderance" of parents etc.).

Maybe I read too much into your points, or simply misread them, but I thought there was a perhpas too much of a view that "the state know what's best for your children".

What about "Education" as being an essential element of this plan? Certainly one can argue that a strong public education system is one way to assist children to becoming informed adults, in a pluralistic society, independent of their upbringing. How should this fit into the plan? What about parochial schools? Should they be supported or even allowed?

Alan -

Good point. I did not think the list was exhaustive as I typed it out off the top of my head. I plan to now go through each one in further detail when I get around to it.

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