For me, the difference with September 11 was that it was almost personal. I, too, was working in a large office tower downtown at the time, and any one of those people at the window could have been me. Yes, the fall of the Berlin Wall may have had wider political implications, but at the time I just remember thinking "ok, I should remember this, it's important" but not realizing exactly why it was important.

That is fair but when I was in my 20s in a town with 17 Soviet warheads aimed at it and a deep and abiding concern for what the flash would look like as most of us did. We even danced to that question.

Wow - the Flea has hit the nail on the head again;

"It has taken us centuries of hard work to break out of out own Dark Ages; there is no reason to import someone else's in the name of a suicidal tolerance. And no excuse not to rouse ourselves from the comfy place by the fire to protect what our ancestors fought and died for."

Couldn't agree more.

It is the work of men like Trevor Greene that allow us to spend our time thinking about Brendan Carney.

I am exceedingly grateful for that.

Here is that excellent piece by the Flea.

That is both an excellent and eviceratingly correct way of putting it, Temujin. The absence of available action or even any call to action other than to "go about" and live freely has always bothered me. I would buy war bonds, for example, if they were offered. But it should be more than that. In Bangor Maine people - civilians - go out to the airport in the middle of the night to shake the hands of returning soldiers as it is the first landing point in the continental USA. We keep the media from the airports for fear of offending.

Shame on you, Alan. Steve-o banned the media and public from body-returns in emulation of Dubya down south. When the military and the families concerned rebelled, the restriction was quietly withdrawn and is spken of no more. Not so, down south.

I am reminded of that clever commercial during the Superbowl a couple years back (Budweiser, I believe) that showed several servicemen and women collecting their luggage at an airport. As they quietly move towards the exit, a small chorus of cheers and clapping begins, and quickly increases until they reach the door and leave.

As far as I know there aren't any Afghan vets in Smithers, British Columbia, nor do I anticipate seeing any returning home in the near future. However I would like to think that if I were to see one at my local airport, or even at Vancouver International, I would certainly thank them. After all, if I ever do see a serviceman at Vancouver Int'l, it will be because <i>I am on a vacation</i>.

Another sobering thought, for me anyways.

I didn't do that when I had the chance. I was at Cooperstown in May with Gary watching a rained out Hall of Fame game when I ran back to the car to get my raincoat. On the way back, turning a corner, I passed a stunning looking young women in US service uniform in a wheelchair with both her legs below the knees missing. She was part of a ceremony at one stage in the game. I must have looked to her like I was hit on the back of the head with a two-by-four. I felt like I had.

This bit I don't get is "some of us":<blockquote class="smalltext">"As the events of Sept. 11 so clearly illustrate, the horrors of the world will not go away if we turn a blind eye to them, no matter how far off they may be," Mr. Harper said. "And these horrors cannot be stopped unless some among us are willing to accept enormous sacrifice and risk to themselves."</blockquote>Why are we not talking about total committment if there is "a struggle for civilization"?

Harper's referring to the military. Only the troops and their families need to make and accept this "enormous sacrifice", not all of us. It's always been that way and always will be.

I know and that is what worries me.

At least Canadian military recruitment doesn't so obviously target the underprivileged of our society like they do in our neighbour to the south. The rich reap the rewards of the sacrifices of the poor.

That is one reason why taxation should be used to spread the obligation. Switching the beer and popcorn money to the Forces would be a start.

Ye Gods, yes. I, for one, would quite willingly pay more taxes if I could be certain that it would be put to good and proper use. Screw this tax cut surplus crap and spend the damn money. Any government that runs a huge surplus is just as incompetent as one that runs a big deficit. Accurate financial forecasting should be a cornerstone of the finance department.

Gordo, it is true that many in the US armed forces are rural or urban poor. I would also say that ideologically they sometimes seem to have a more black and white type outlook than young people on their way to college or working. By this I mean they feel they have to go to Iraq to protect the people in their family. This may or may not be true, but it strikes me as buying the propaganda. I feel they have been sold a rotten bill of goods, that there is so much more to consider if you are going to lay your health or life on the line. Simply put, the best way to support the troops might have been to keep them home to begin with. With a mid-term election looming, you hear discussion of how a generalized draft would affect everyone's view of this war. If every young person was required to enlist, what would America think of this thing? 1968 all over again?

Gary, I keep hearing that so many of these folks originally joined up for the great education support programs your military has and then wind up unexpectedly shipping out. I have absolutely no idea how that contrasts to here, so I'll avoid drawing distinctions. I have no doubt that a generalized draft would have a serious impact on public opinion. It's funny how drawing the privileged classes directly into a conflict changes their views.

That is exactly my point, Gordo. 'Priveleged classes' don't have to send their kids to war. The college in this town costs about 41 thou a year, about what our first house cost. A great many folks do want that education, and their only perceived route is through the military. I wish it was easier for everyone to pay for their education. As far as the shipping out goes, I grew up with the undertsanding that the National Guard and The Reserves were mostly for building up damns in floods, and if the commies landed on the shores of Connecticut they would be mobilized. It seems that a lot of local police officers and just about anyone doing any job who is also in the guard or reserves may suddenly find themselves with a ticket to Baghdad. (interesting that our commander in chief was in the Texas Air National Guard but never got sent to Vietnam. How did policy change? Because without a draft, the guard and reserves are the backups overseas.)
All this said, I respect the sacrifices these millions of folks are making, and I am grateful, but should they have to???

On the Canadian side, I do recall the story of one Canadian medical student in Gulf War Uno signing up for the military's plan to get you through the education in exchange for a five year or so return of service. Week one of med school when he is learning to sew up orange peels he is met in a class by a bunch of guys in uniform who take him to the base where his is shipped off to the desert even though he has yet to learn anything much other than sewing up orange peels. I understand he learned a lot. He would have been regular forces even if pre-bootcamp (military or medical). Some of our other forces in Afghanistan are reservists.

"Should they have to?". You're projecting yourself onto other people Gary. I've know a number of people in the military, from low classes to high and the last thing they'd ever want is some guy wringing his hands over their choices. They're adults and proud to have had the opportunity to serve their county in this capacity.

BTW, just in case someone is misinformed about this matter, ZIP code analysis shows that the upper-middle class does its fair share of serving in the military. Furthermore, in terms of _casualities_, uppper-middle class whites bear a disportionate share of the burden, as minorites and poor people ... those being posited of being forced into the military for economic reasons ... tend to opt for non-combat positions (of which there are quite a few in the military!)

Sorry, I don't have a link handy for the latter fact right now. I'll see if I can dig it up later.

You seem to be veering into reality-based reality today, David. Huzzah!

OK, David, I trust you and what you have to say, links or no links, but I am no expert. What I have said above is based on my understanding of certain situations, and I am too lazy to back up what I say with specific quotes, which is why I use a lot of qualifiers and questions. Maybe I should get back to my main point. I wonder if the response to 9/11 should have been taking those directly responsible to task: ie, Osama and Saudi Arabia, the home of most of the 9/11 terrorists. If that were the case, Osama would be priority ONE, and war with the Saudis number two. Things have worked out differently, and it looks more like Bush 2 wanted to finish the job his father started. Truthfully, though, David, it is a mess, I have no solutions and basically I am a lucky dude to be sitting here discussing it, not dodging bullets in Baghdad. I bet you will agree with me there. (I have a cousin who is a NATO officer. He is pushing 50, not exactly in combat shape, an education director, and he goes to Kabul this fall. This is not what he figured he would do as he neared retirement, and I pray that he and all others should be safe in this conflict....)

Actually, David, 'some guy wringing his hands over it..' is dangerously close to macho posturing on your part, or at least personal contempt for my empathy with soldiers I feel should be home. 50 paces at dawn.........

You will each have to be closer of the wet noodles are to have any effect.

Squirt guns loaded with cherry koolade. That stuff is killer to get out in the laundry.

Aack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment spam! Icky! Where's the spray bottle? Bad commentor! Bad!!!!!!! (squirt) Bad!!!! (rubs commentor nose in the comment spam it left on the carpet). Bad!!!

Not to worry. The wizards at silverorange who actually run the workings of this place added a very handy "delete mass comments" feature making this a one click matter. All spam gone. Manual spammers beware. You have nothing compared to my powers. The spray bottle was a good idea, though.

Let me preface this with saying that in a rather social setting I'd really enjoy hanging with the GX40 commentors. Our non-political and non-work interests really do mesh well(and since I don't drink I make the decision about who is to be the designated driver real easy). I do like many of you as people, and would love to sit in a nice bar watching sports and general chit-chat with you.

Now, back to being mean.

gr, I am going to assume you're at least as old as I(early 30s). I really cannot believe you're saying that Reservists did not know they could be shiped off to war.

Why? We went thru this with Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1028-07.htm, http://openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/1991-2/1991-02-01-NBC-17.html). There were a lot of bits, at the time, like that NBC one. I remember one that asked if it was right to send mothers to war.

That's just so wrong gr. One of the results of the VIetnam war, something heralded by progressives over things like Dan Quayle, was that afterwards the US could not go to war without activating the Reserves and the Guard---thanks in part to Creighton Abrams(http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/hl869.cfm, http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/07/18/152634.php).

I just cannot believe that someone who lived thru the 1991 war with all of the human interest stories that were done on the subject still believes that the reserve was only for fighting Godless Hordes that assaulted our shores and fighting wild fires. Maybe it's because I'm wierd. BUt I just don't see how anyone, who was over the age of 12(and not likely paying attention), and lived thru that time can say that. Like I said, maybe it's 'cause I'm weird.

Maybe I ought to try writing 'Understanding the US military: For dummies' after all? It seems there are a lot of really bad myths running around out there that need to be put to rest.

Well, ry, I don't know many things, as I have pointed out, but every reservist I have met tells me a different story. As someone back there pointed out, they want some education, extra cash, a couple of benefits. They don't neccessarily figure they are headed out to the middle of a foreign conflict. It is also my understanding, and this is the point, that recruiters talk that stuff up, never mentioning the overseas combat that could interrupt your life.

Look ry, I don't know everything, neither do you, stop acting so superior, I don't want to argue. This is such a boring and circular argument, and I have already admitted to being too lazy to do anything more than list my IMPRESSIONS and UNDERSTANDINGS. My point from the beginning remains clear: the gov't has been reckless with foreign policy and reckless with troops lives. I support the troops by saying, one last time, they never should have been sent into a conflict that was poorly planned and poorly understood. I am not saying any more on this. As a matter of fact, me and my toys are going over to Gordo's, 'cause he has doritos.

You know, ry, I am not sure why you have jumped in with the (bordering on hateful) remarks about dummies and what you have to teach them, because I sure don't recall getting personal with you. As for my age, now that you mention it, I am in my 40s, several years older than you, and easily remember Vietnam and how happy that little conflict made everyone. Sure, I am drawing parallels between that mess and this one.
So, I guess I broke my promise. I said more on this, but you're on the edge of hurling insults, and its just more fun talking beer and football.

It is mostly that we are unblog like, gary and ry. As I indicated a few days ago, I enforce civility but I do so because it keeps us from being rude to each other or, worse, an embarrassment of sameness and hero worship. That being said, I am coaxing ry to the light just as I have forced others out as I see a diamond in the not very rough.

Why did I write the 'For Dummies' thing? Because I actually think about writing it. You aren't the only people I've run into that says things military related that cause me to go 'huh?' and look it up.

Like I said, sometimes you and I seem to really not get each other. We're suspecting maliciousness when there isn't. That wasn't an attempt at driving a knife in the back.

Hell, I even said I liked you gr.. Maybe the 'back to being mean' shtick gave you the wrong signal, but that was intended as comedy(I know, I know, I'm not funny and shouldn't try.).

Yes, recruiters talk up the benefits package. That's their job. So? How does that nullify the contract that was signed which is very clear about things? The same argument was made early on about those serving in the Active Component---they did it to escape poverty/get the GI Bill/etc.

Here's the thing, they get all that stuff, well above and beyond what you're going to be offered in the private sector, to make soldiering attractive enough to be done. That's the deal. The gov't will give you all this stuff in return for service up to and including going to war. That's explicit in the contract. The deal is implicit from the word go. It isn't free stuff. It's a trade. It is implicit that it is a trade.

That's why it's galling to me to hear, 'They didn't want to go to war. They just wanted the goodies.' SOmeone actually did write a book about exactly this, 'The Last True Story I'll Ever Tell' http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?isbn=157322314x I'm not that sympathetic to the argument at all. I come from a welfare family. I worked my arse off to pay for college, working while I was in school, and still came away with massive debt for my undergrad education---which I'm still paying off. I'm in that boat for graduate school too---I'm working now outside of school to keep it going since my project got de-funded(thanks to the eye thing) and I'm still jsut teaching myself mil=pol.

As the first sentence of the Powell's review says he joined so as to get essentially a free education, but was mollified that the gov't expected him to hold up his end of the argument. Maybe you don't get that. Maybe you do. Maybe you see that as justly sticking it to The Man.

I don't. Being as how I came up the way I did, how I see how hard it is NOT to get a college education in this country(California has a junior college that serves as a feeder to a four year every couple of miles in just about every city and town, even someplace as podunk as Sonora and Tulare. Indiana, podunk Indiana, has something like 20 4 year colleges in the state, and a butt load of junior colleges feeding into them in every town), it really does seem to me that you have to consciously not try, I don't get looking for free money like that. It galls me. Gaming the system pisses the heck out of me. I don't see it as a righteous thumbing of the nose at 'The Man'. When people make that type of argument my blue collar, Irish temper comes out. I thought I had it in check. Sorry. But there it is.

So, how time in the GX40 penalty box, Al? Five days for unsportsmanlike high sticking(hockey is around the corner, yeah!)?
Sorry if I've worn your last nerve gr. I'm not really trying to do that. I really am trying just to show the other side to you. You just seem really hostile to seeing it and I'm a born meddler who can't resist going 'look, it's a sail boat in the dots! Can't you see it? Try!'. Maybe I should leave that to Herr Flea and Mr. Janes? Al, what's the ruling on that? SHould I leave this kind of thing to Flea and Janes?

No way. You are way off the penalty box. More like a young awkward Gordie Howe. As you are self aware and well-meaning it is an entirely different thing that been a loud-mouthed schnook as far as I am concerned. I cannot bear a loud-mouthed schnook.

Thanks for explaining yourself ry, although I am unconvinced. Colin Powell made a few points yesterday, so I don't have to.