They either get in on their record or their records don't stand. And since there is no proof that Barry or Mark willfully took steroids and there is no asterisk beside their numbers, they should get in, right?

I never knew integrity and character were things that could only be impugned on proof before a criminal court of law. That is a very funny standard.

I say treat them like we treat Rose. They get in posthumously, if at all. A cheater is a cheater. If there's no big deal, that there were no rules banning the substances, why the public relations CYA by Bonds, Mac, etc? It was cheating and they knew it. You don't cheat your profession. You don't lie to get ahead. We wouldn't accept that anywhere else so why accept it for the highest honor in baseball?
No Hall for Canseco, Bonds, Mac, or anyone else who has done 'roids.
And Bonds 'not knowingly' taken 'roids? Right. So Bonds takes these 'suplements' his trainer gives him and BB takes on all of the contra-indications and benefits of 'roid use and it never dawns on him that he's taking 'roids? Particularly given how hard 'roid knowledge was being pushed at athletes in the early 90s? Right. Exciting player to watch but dirty as the day is long. Cheater. Cheaters don't go to the Hall. Cheaters don't get asterisks, they get expunged from the books. I have little time for Dan Lebetard arguments.

So you're saying throw out the records or put an asterisk by their name? If that's the case, then how about some of the current players who APPEAR to have taken steroids, but have tested negative. How about Scott Spiezio or Albert Pujols? They're both 220 plus and look like they could have used performance enhancing drugs. So do we take away their World series rings?

What could possibly be the argument they would have against Mcguire's integrity, sportsmanship, and character? He was a good citizen who was heavily involved in his community. Plus, he was able to push the envelope with regards to homeruns hit in a single season. IMHO, that is someone who belongs in the hall.

He has all the sporting integrity of a mid-70s East German swimmer, that's all. He also singlehandedly devalued the home run record...OK, maybe Sosa and Bonds as well.

It isn't just size. Though size is a factor.(Hey, I was once a CIF certified coach in basketball, track, and X-country, and once was a sports med major. I've got my transcripts from Santa Ana College around here somewhere. I am also a chemist(BA UC Davis 2001)) There's a laundry list of things to look for that Bonds and MAc and Sosa definitely had(bad tempers, severe acne, etc). And Mac admitted to having dibal in his locker and using it. That's basically an anhydride of (R-C=0-0-C=O-R, not capable of doing proper notation here, Al. But this is an attempt to show what dibal looks like. R is the biologically important part of the 'roid, the carbons and oxygens (C and O) show the chemical linkage. That's easy split by acid, say in the stomach, which gives 2 R-C=O-OH, the steroid. When you get down into the semantics its not a 'roid. It's an anhydride or an ester. But it's made from two steroid molecules. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that that's an admission to being a cheater.)
Pujols has always been a big kid. Always. He's always been doing what he's been doing. He'd have to have been on the juice since the minors and a test to bust him. Speizio? You've got to be kidding. Just because he weighs 220? I weigh over 220(though I'm portly instead of ripped), does that mean I'm on 'roids? No. I don't show the other signs. Acne. bad temper. Moodiness. Rapid weight gain and strength gain. Easily injured in connective tissue. None of those applies to Spiezio or Pujols as far as I know. But if it turns out to be so? Throw them under the bus. Don't care who it hurts (I'd be sad if it turned out Nolan Ryan was a 'roid head, but the integrity of the game is more important than any one player or collection of players). "If you aren't cheating you aren't trying" is not what baseball is about nor is it the message baseball should be sending.

Mac is fairly dead as a baseball personage in my mind. He ADMITTED to using a substance that generates steroids when ingested! Bonds has been shown, with academic and legal rigor, to have been on steroids. Palmiero. Bagwell. All of them should have their records expunged. Cheaters one and all. Sosa is a harder sell. He wasn't busted nor did he admitt to anything that anyone who knows anything about chemicals would see as a semantics dodge in a second.

The gist of the argument for Mac is: he's a product of his era. True, he was. But that doesn't make it right. We banned Shoeless Joe Jackson for cheating on a series, but we won't ban Mac for cheating over the length of his career because 'everyone else was doing it too'? Un-bagalievabbbbble.

That's not ingerity. That's rationalizing. We wouldn't accept cheating in a county election(which is about as likely to have any real effect on anyone's life 999/1000) and so why should we accept it here? It's abandoning principle for the awe of the homerun. Nobody, no record, or what the supposedly did for baseball (having games on at times when most of the country could watch would've done more for baseball than homerun derby. I.e. having the WS start at 9pm est is bad. HAving grown up out West I know why they like to start it later(lots of people leave West of the Mississippi), but kids and adults go to sleep before ten on weeknights everywhere.) is worth the integrety of The Game.

Posthumous if at all. Asterisked to high heaven if at all. And the same treatment for everyone who gets caught or admitts it(I'll throw Giambi in there too.).

Pushed the envelope on a single season HR record? Give me an aluminum bat with the sweet spot essentially tailored to be the entire barrel and Adam Kennedy could probably do the same thing. Does that mean we should let him do it and consider it legitimate? that would be compromising the integrity of The Game wouldn't it? Same with guys who use steroids as becoming strong enough to yank pitches that used to tie you up inside is done as artificially as the enlarged sweet spot.

Excellent comment but mainly because you agree with me <i>and</i> know more than I do.

Naw. I'm just a pedant, Al. But even a pedant can be right twice a day(like broken clocks).