I guess that last bullet means write about anything you like, or nothing (per usual for some of us!). I see no mention of the usual beer, b.s., baseball or bikinis up there so maybe......

Last bullet? Oh, I forgot to close the tag. So there.

Dang. So much for an open ended chat. Least I got to be first! Now I will move to the sidelines and hope that someone like Marian will take the ball and run with it...

"Is Iraq going the way of the former Yugoslavia?"

Yes. A political scientist at UPEI mentioned this yesterdau in class. He expects a Kurdish state to emerge first and the Shiites and Sunnis will continue to scrap for the forseeable future.

Expect a war between a Kurdish state and Turkey, then.

Expect Turkey to get its ass kicked, then.

That part of it was left unpsoken, but given current conceptions of Kurdish territory and the Turkish background in dealing with this particular ethnic minority (not to mention others), then, yeah, if we see a Kurdistan arise from the failing Iraqi state, conflict over boundaries with the Turks is sure to ensue.

Not sure about the Flea's assessment of Turk vs. Kurd scrap; as I understand it, the Turks have a pretty formidable military due mostly to their on-going hostilities with their many neighbours such as Greece, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Armenians and the Iraqis. But maybe Flea knows more about it than me. I don't know much about Kurds. Whey, even less.

We clearly need a library of Turkish military reference documents. Start with this, this and this.<p>Interesting to note that Turkey has the second largest standing armed force in NATO, after the US, with a combined troop strength of 680,000 compared to a population of something like 4,000,000 or so Iraqi Kurds (if my math is to be trusted).

The size of the Turkish army is not at issue nor is its quality.* The issue is not even that Israel aligned itself with the Kurds once it decided the United States was making a hash of things with Iran in southern Iraq** (though it is true Israel has demonstrated time and again the capability of plucky locals with their backs to the wall to take on conscript armies).

The point is whether you believe the United States would allow Turkey to conquer northern Iraq. It will not.

*Though Chris Taylor makes excellent points about that too:
http://taylor.textamerica.com/details/?r=4287358

** http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/040628fa_fact

I don't think we are talking about a war of conquest.

Then I have no idea what this means:

"Expect a war between a Kurdish state and Turkey, then."

It could be a war of liberation (or some such name) in which the regime in Bahgdad (where does that "h" go?) asks for help to maintain the cohesion of the Iraqi state. Turkey crosses the border and acts under direction from the Iraqi government against the young Kurdish state. If Israel or the US were to actually consider direct attack on Turkey, the NATO treaty may get engaged and we in the Great White North may be required to retake Maine in common cause with our Turkish allies.

the Great White North may be required to retake Maine in common cause

Maine? MAINE? What do Canadians need Maine for? We already own the North Western Territories...

There is no way the NATO treaty will get invoked for such a measure. Greece and Turkey (both longtime NATO members) have been to war a few times and we have, collectively, have minded our own business each time they do so.

I doubt very much if Turkey would execute an invasion, even at the invitation of Iraq. At the very least it would require the tacit approval of the U.S. and like the Flea, I do not think they would grant it. Turkey attacking a would-be Kurdistan with U.S. forces in the AO is political and military suicide. The attack would be easily repelled and Turkey might find itself booted out of the He-Man Commie-Haters club.

No need to imagine an American attack on Turkey. In a war between Turkey and Kurdistan it is the Turkish army attempting to take over an area under United Nations occupation forces, i.e. Turkish forces opening fire on the US Army and Marine Corps. This would be tricky under both the NATO treaty you have just mentioned and, more to the point, reality. Once again, the Americans are not going to allow Turkey to conquer or "liberate" northern Iraq any more than Kurdish representatives in the Iraqi government would ask them to. Once again, the size and capability of the Turkish armed forces is a moot point.

But lets say your "war of liberation" scenario evolved as you describe due to some hallucinatory miscalculation on the part of both Sunni and Shiite Arab parties in the Iraqi government. Let us further assume the Americans (and the United Nations and the rest of the Coalition) agreed to this stupidity and withdrew their forces in order to allow the Turkish army in. I assume the sneerquotes suggest it would in fact not be a war of liberation but would actually be the war of conquest no matter in whose name said conquest was being carried out. This war of liberation would then be the very war of conquest you denied two comments ago and is the only scenario in which Kurdish forces might stand alone against Turkey.

While I take your point, I think thinking Turkey as a client-state of the US is fairly off point. An independent Kurdistan would be perceived as a massive threat to the stability of Turkey. If that came to be through a civil war in Iraq it would a very different situation than a Greece-Turkey conflict replay #3248.<p>ANd I don't think it would invoke the NATO charter...unless someone came into the game that might trigger an individual NATO member from invoking Article 5:<blockquote class="smalltext">The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.</blockquote>Remember, too, that this all may occur in 3 to 5 years when Iraq is no longer a US friend.

Just spotted Chris' comment. I was replying to Alan.

A further thought: if I was running the Kurdish military something like 100% of my attention would be directed toward making life difficult in whatever mountain passes reach the place from Iran, Syria and most especially Turkey. Furthermore, I would almost certainly have Israeli assistance in pondering the problem.

Not sure how these two assertions speak to each other:

"Is Iraq going the way of the former Yugoslavia?"

"Remember, too, that this all may occur in 3 to 5 years when Iraq is no longer a US friend."

This reminds of the time a friend of mine claimed downloadable books had killed the printed word. I pointed out year on year growth in UK book sales at the time at which point he decided to claim downloadable books had killed the printed word at some nebulous point in the future. A much less interesting (if no more plausible) claim than the one he had just made.

<i>Je ne sneer pas</i>. I didn't mean to engange in snide-ations. What I meant was there are plenty of sub-actions to a full out war of conquest and territorial absorption. <p>I could easily see upon a US pull back that will come one day, a civil war get some traction which the Kurds of Iraq would rightly engage in and protect themselves. This would at the least tempt the Turks to engage in some bombing to keep them at a reasonable level (from the Turkish point of view) of distance from a greater Kurdistan.<p>Domino, domino, domino...we take Maine again. All makes sense to me.

I think this is the third argument you have made so far in comments to this post:

"This would at the least tempt the Turks to engage in some bombing to keep them at a reasonable level"

In which case I still do not see the point of citing the size of the Turkish conscript army.

That would be in the range of potential activity above "at least". I really must protest that all my arguments are in the range of the plausible for a Friday afternoon. Would not the Turks, for example and concurrent to some selective bombing, be wise from their point of view to liberate certain bridges and passes care of its will filled barracks without comitting to a full fledged administrative conquest?

If Canada annexed Maine, would anybody notice, even Mainers themselves? Would anybody care? It would likely remain a beautiful state with a great college hockey team (maybe even better). The upside would be a border crossing that would limit tourists from Massachusetts, unless they planned to be drive better and leave a lot of cash behind.

When I taught I had many Turkish students and found the cross between European and Mid-east culture fascinating. However, although mostly secular, the politics there have been horrendous for what, centuries? Will the Greeks ever sleep easily, how does Armenia feel about the Turks? I admire the resiliance of the Kurds, and wish everyone could leave them alone.

"He who blogs with the intent of dictating is a fool. Seek a self-appointed guru, seek a fool. Sadly, fawning dolts abound." Gee, somehow I get the feeling that this was targeted at me. Well excuse me, having grown up with a drunken shit of an older brother and fatherless(another drunken shit) in a place where I got the stuffing beat out of me for the color of my skin(there are dark parts of Orange County, home of Disneyland, where being white is of the 'bummer of a birthmark, hal' class, and I lived there til I was 24 and have the scars to prove it. Why would I have joined in with the Punk scene given my proclivities otherwise?), for actually trying to learn from older men who seem(or seemed) amenable to working difficult questions out, Al.
Excuse me for actually thinking you and the rest of the GenX40 Nation would be open to doing something like, 'Now look here, young man, you've got it all wrong.....,' and talk about it.
I do come here to learn, and to have fun, Al. And there's nothing lickspittle about that.
I guess I'll just have to stick to B4(i add 'bullshit' to the list) threads then.

Turkey: Only if the Kurds try to take what is considered Turkish land to form the new Kurdistan(and the PKK says they will do, they'll also claim take a chunk out of NW Iran). Once Turkey has broght that which has been hacked off of Turkey back into the fold will there need to be anything more than the targeted strikes that Israel uses against the Palestinians in the new Kurdistan to go after PKK or a purely defensive presence on the border to prevent loss of that land again necessary?
I'm not sure I'm with the Flea on a broader conflict being necessary in this. I'm not seeing why this turns into a broader and more general conflict. I'm not seeing where attacks on UN forces or NATO forces comes into play.

ry - you are mistaken. I was aiming that at portland. And Gary. Oh, and Marian in Budapest, too. So while I am surprise by your communication, I am also confident that you will understand that it has nothing to do with you. I once thought the Flea was disappointed with me but it was in fact someone else whose targetting was a joy, in fact. Today, it is mere puffery.<p>And on all this Turkish Kurdish thing, I think we have to solve this with boardgame round-robin of both Risk and Diplomacy. And the whole NATO thing is a ploy to grab Holton Maine and Ogdensbutg New York.

If Canada annexed Maine, would anybody notice, even Mainers themselves? Would anybody care? It would likely remain a beautiful state with a great college hockey team (maybe even better).

And probably even better speed skaters. OK, then. Maine, shall now be called "South Eastern and Somewhat Central Territories".

I'm back. I have to say that I don't understand this connection to Wesleyanism. Are you suggesting that anyone who defends secular knowledge is a zealot? Or that I am a zealot because I am critiquing your own self-contradictory relativism? If so, then I have to point out that there's a big difference between defending secular (and especially) scientific knowledge such as medicine (which is falsifiable), and bible thumping. Some would say these are actually opposites. Feel free to ban me if you don't like what I'm saying, but I'll likely ignore any veiled references to zealotry from now on. ALso, I assume that since you are down to using ad hominems, I have won.

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't Maine's lobster fishery in a much, much better state than ours? Do we really want DFO getting its greasy hands on what would be our last successful, sustainable Atlantic lobster fishery?

Does anyone know how to cook African Yams? Is that off topic? I have to go in about five minutes.

Wesley said to his followers immediately before sailing for the USA in the 1730s something to the effect of if any of them were getting on board because they thought he thought it was a good idea they should not get on baord. Only their own conviction could guide them to decision making.<p>Maine? Lobsters? Who knew. All I know is that Dal in Halifax was founded on the fleecings of Mainers during the last possession round about 1812.

Microwave until soft to the knife. Scoop out and mash with herbs and butter and garlic.

Thanks. I hadn't thought of garlic. Sounds good.

I've never had a yam so you should be in for a treat.

I would cook the yam the same way, but I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I am in a fawning state, re: Alan. Now I find that I am a dolt. Who is the most doltish, though? Is it Portland? I think he is pretty funny. Marian? She seems pretty smart. I suppose that leaves me at the top of the dolt list. It is very gratifying to be number one at something!

Can't we all just get along? Perhaps go back to arguing politics and international relations?

I was just distracting ry, Gary. I made the whole thing up.<p>On the yam question, are you really eating yams or sweet potatoes?

Re: Maine - What about the time difference? Would they stay EST or switch to AST once taken over?

Oh, okay. My bad. John might lend you the Hairy Eyeball to put me in my place with, and THe Dunce Cap of Argghhh! for me to wear in the Penalty Box of GenX. My bad. And it's all true, Al. Every word. I may be thirty and married, but I don't know what I'm doing half the time(can you tell I'm operating on short sleep today?).

Turkey: best eaten late in November with lots of other fixins, like yams.

Damn, I thought I was #1 there for awhile, at least I was #1 for today's chat. That counts for something. As for time, do people in Maine wear watches? Maybe the Newfoundland time zone, whatever that is.
Gourmet magazine did a thing on mashed yams, well, mashed sweet potatoes and damn, it was good. Bake the potatoes until soft, scoop into bowl with a boatload of cream and butter, mash it up, yummy! No marshmallows needed.

GR gets the penalty box for unkind remarks about Maine, and Massachusetts. Where does he live, New Hampshire? Oh, that's right, all those little states make up jokes about each other.

I rather like the idea of a priori cooking advice. Add butter and garlic to anything: except, well, ice cream.

The ongoing assumption has been that the Turks will not let the Kurds have their own state. Perhaps not, but states arise and then its up to them to find a way of surviving.

The Turks have EU aspirations, the Kurds have Israeli advice, the Sunnis and the Shi'ites are likely to be busy creating Rwanda by the Euphrates - ideal time for a state to emerge.

And, remember, if as my lefty friends tell me, its all about the oil, an independent Kurdistan would have lots of the black stuff.

But the alQaeda blast at the mosque is the real test of whether or not Iraqis want to have India/Pakistan sized communal bloodletting or if they ware prepared to move forward. I am praying they move forward but I am reather afraid that decades of anger in the Shi'ite community could spill out. And then it could get nasty.

Cooking advice: double the chocolate or add bacon.

Iraqi Civil War: we've been told it's imminent for the last three years, why not now? But I wouldn't look to the media for the answer to that question.

I fear the media. I had one in the house once.<p>Nice catch, Jay. I giggled and giggled knowing I set that side dish plan off in Budapest.

Would they stay EST or switch to AST once taken over?

Maine would have their own timezone of course, so they can get used to AST. Sort of like Newfoundland with their silly + 00.30 hrs time difference.

By the way, those yams cost about five bucks a kilo, so it's not funny, dammit.

On another note, I think Alan should take up swearing. It would be good for him to get things off his chest instead of smoldering away in these blog posts. Not only didn't anyone get the actual insult he was making, but most of us dolts didn’t even get who it was for.

What insult? Wah? D'oh? Dwing? I think think you are being a little sensitive...every one of you. You all need a time out. That's it. Maybe you won't get your pocket money this week either! Santa is watching you know...<p>On a more civil note, how is the yam market these days anyway? Is it something that you could get anytime in Budapest? And I did actually give you our local sweet potato tip so I was not that far away from the truth.

Actually, I didn't follow your instructions. So the above was just a joke, dammit!! The yam was already in the oven when I asked for advice, anyway. It weighs about ten pounds and smells like cake when you bake it. It is indeed a true yam, not a sweet potato. I'll send you a photo, if you’re interested. There's an African food shop about three blocks from where we live, so we picked one up. It isn't the sort of thing you would find in the super market (nor would you find sweet potatoes). In fact, until recently things like broccoli out of season, and avocadoes were also mostly unavailable as well. The yam tastes really different, not yam like.

On the alleged insult, nobody understands the dolt/fool/fawning whatever up there. We don't get it. We come here in peace. We come here (many of us) to argue (are those mutually exclusive? I don’t know). Blogs are video games for people who shouldn’t play video games, or err, blog.

yeah, if Alan wants to hurl insults, maybe we should defect to the friendlier Land Of Flea. More bikinis over there anyhow.

I really can't be responsible for what I wrote yesterday. [My new motto.] It was not directed at anyone here, though, even if it jumped from the expert thread you and I were barking on. I am a little fed up with important bloggers (an oxymoron), that's all. I rant. <i>Ich rante</i>. <i>Ja rantiem</i>. Shouldn't I be allowed to rant once in a while?

What does one do with ten pounds of baked yam anyway?

Re: yams, I usually cook and freeze.

Re: ranting, rant more clearly. Or take up karate.

I don't usually hang with the flea, Gary, though maybe I should. Or, I could take up smoking again. It might be easier.

"Iraqi Civil War: we've been told it's imminent for the last three years, why not now?"

David: I don't think that is what Alan is saying. If I have got this straight, Alan thinks we can expect "a war between a Kurdish state and Turkey" though by "a war" he means a "war of liberation" which he also says is no such thing and not much of a war either because it might involve bombing "to keep them down" or possibly the temptation to maybe secure a bridge or two. For which purpose we need to click through to awe at the size of the Turkish standing army. This all may or may not happen in three or four years and is somehow relevant to the bombing of the Golden Mosque this week. The gestalt is coming clear to me now! All I had to do was stare at the screen and let my eyes relax. You try it too and his argument will click into focus. Or maybe not depending on what else he comes up with in his next comment.

Alan: I am beginning to understand why you think blogging is no substitute for the mainstream media.

"I'm not sure I'm with the Flea on a broader conflict being necessary in this. I'm not seeing why this turns into a broader and more general conflict. I'm not seeing where attacks on UN forces or NATO forces comes into play."

Ry: You will have to ask Alan about this. He thinks Turkey can liberate/bomb/secure a bridge or two Kurdistan in three or four years because the Americans would not stop them because if they did this would be a NATO member attacking another NATO member. Never mind the Greeks and the Turks have done this with mind numbing regularity (as I believe Chris pointed out). All I did was to point out Alan's scenario did not involve an American attack on Turkish forces but quite the opposite.

Exactly! I never look to me for wisdom and I encourage others to follow likewise. Remember, I am a fictional performance art bit being presented by an undergrad co-ed at Ohio State for a 201 level course. And, yes, I am considered to be hot.

I really do, however, think that all is vanity and that blogs are the clearest expression of it. Consider - have you learned anything from a blog or changed your life because of one? I like Marian's video game reference. We are all fixed by the ability to make images on a cathode ray screen follow the instructions we give it.

So where's the bikini on the beach picture "Alan"?
Last I saw, "Alan" was a clown. And a man.

Marian: Step carefully in the land of Flea. It can be addictive.

"Consider - have you learned anything from a blog or changed your life because of one?"

Not so far this morning. Though I am reminded of some choice advice from William S. Burroughs about humouring people.

I am blind to pop references having been struck on the head by a gourd as a teen. I can't find it in Google either. I am undone.

I can buy this though I am not clear whether it is Burroughs:<blockquote class="smalltext">Humouring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply.</blockquote>

Yes, might as well share flea.

I think Al and I have discussed the Iraqi Civil War in the past, so I may be bringing context (or baggage) here.

I think these thinks are something close to being unpredictable, in almost a quantum mechanical sort of sense. At some level, we're talking about the whims of individual actors determining actions that will put history on some fairly different paths. That's not to say that you shouldn't try to predict the future, but rather one should (if you have a dog in the fight) predict many different futures and what your plan of action is for each of them.

Just for the record, I don't think Turkey will invade the Kurdish area of Iraq, I have no idea whether something fundemental happened in Iraq in the last week but if it _didn't_ then there won't be civil war because of it, and that there's a reasonable chance of a destablizing attack on Iran which will cast the future into unchartarted waters, and if something doesn't happen in Iran Israel will not exist in half a decade's time.

For your amusement, maps from 1914: The World, Europe.

"I think these thinks are something close to being unpredictable, in almost a quantum mechanical sort of sense. At some level, we're talking about the whims of individual actors determining actions that will put history on some fairly different paths. That's not to say that you shouldn't try to predict the future, but rather one should (if you have a dog in the fight) predict many different futures and what your plan of action is for each of them."

I'm with David on this. Too many variables. Also, individuals matter when it comes to predicting this kind of thing.

To GR: I have to confess that I'm not really into bikinis. Is that right? Or should I say bikinis don't really interest me? (I'm a bit boring that way. And apologies to Flea). I do, however, argue and lurk elsewhere. My Blahg: http://www.myblahg.com/, Sooey's, ruk.ca, Craig's (http://paradise.islandmusings.net/) Nils's and 'nee's as well as Azerbic, Alfons's and Arthur's and occasionally at blogscanada.ca (though not so much lately). I should actually stop arguing with people. Should have made it a New Year's resolution. I don't think this says very much about blogging in general though, except that it is a video game. But it has always been a video game for me. It's not personal. That doesn't mean it can't also be serious or *clear*. Take that, ya dullards. Zot zot.

Okay. I'm outta here. Must do something worthwhile. Anything.

David is most sensible. But I think there is much good in public supposing and pondering without the obligation or expectation of actually being right. As I noted on many an occasion, I do not think that is possible most especially of me but I do not think that is a failure, merely the way it is. The indirectness of it all is useful.

Marian-having had a subtropical winter overall, the American Northeast is getting a dose of the Arctic today, snow and cold. Which seems shocking almost, except that it is still February, not June--that is why the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue comes out now (and bikinis have been mentioned): it represents warmer days I guess.
The wife and I pack up and move to the outer suburbs of Kingston, Ont this weekend. Well, a quick 3-4 hour drive away. Time to stop wasting time and sort the junk....

You're moving to Kingston? My sister lived there. It's a nice town with lots of history.

Joking a bit, Marian, Alan lives in Kingston, we are goin' to ITHACA! Yeah baby, watchout central NY.......

"I rather like the idea of a priori cooking advice. Add butter and garlic to anything: except, well, ice cream." Obviously, you've never been to Gorman, California during the Garlic Festival. *Shudder*

I cannot conceive of garlic beer.

"have you learned anything from a blog or changed your life because of one" ACtually, yes. But I may be an extreme case.
It also depends on which blogs you're talking about. Blogs like this defunct one http://www.dozame.org or tdaxp and Tom Barnett's I definately have learned some things about geo-politics and int'l relations.
Learned some history over at JoAs, and he has explained how to disassemble and clean various firearms over there(plus a defunct series on the history of firearms in warfare).
Learn, kinda sorta, how women look at things over at SWWBO's and the other fem Denizen blogs. Kinda.
So, it is possible. but do blogs replace the need for people? No, not really.
And the Flea is always the one stop shopping place for the Minogue sisters and other celeb news---so one can bone up on celebutaunt news there quite easily, which comes in handy waiting for lab meeting to start and you have to make small talk with fem labmates.
So, I'd say it's possible. I think you underestimate the ability to convey a message or lesson thru a blog, Al. Kinda along the lines that people underestimate how a small action becomes a lesson learned that remains with offspring for the rest of their lives, even if they don't really realize it.

"I cannot conceive of garlic beer." Gorman, Al. Gorman.

"Ry: You will have to ask Alan about this. He thinks Turkey can liberate/bomb/secure a bridge or two Kurdistan in three or four years because the Americans would not stop them because if they did this would be a NATO member attacking another NATO member. Never mind the Greeks and the Turks have done this with mind numbing regularity (as I believe Chris pointed out). All I did was to point out Alan's scenario did not involve an American attack on Turkish forces but quite the opposite."
Really only speaking to the last part. Why? Right now US policy is geared toward keeping Turkey happy in that regard by not allowing a Kurdish state to form out of a dead IRaq. Let's say that we fail in that area, and we get a three or more state phoenix rising out of the ashes of Iraq. Turkey is hopping mad because the PKK and other Kurdish terror groups would immediately declare certain parts of Turkey in addition to parts of the former northern provinces of Iraq to be part of a Kurdish state, which is why Turkey opposes a partitioning of Iraq since it would escalate violence against Turkey.
Does TUrkey have to invade northern Iraq to stop this? I don't think so. And neither does the US have to wind up fighting Turkish forces.
I see a Palistine/Israel thing forming---which kinda already exists in the area in question: groups pushing for Kurdish state attack Turkey.
US putting troops along the border of northern Iraq as peacekeepers, or the Blue Helmets(that's about all they really seem to be good for, well, that and rape if you pay attention to the multitude of sex scandals involving UN peacekeeping forces). Turkey is then given a choice: take back and control what was originally your or go for more and wind up fighting the US(kind of like the choice that was given India in 2002 during the Kashmiri flare up at that time).
Where do you think I've gone wrong then, Dr. Flea-good?

Only in once again ascribing Alan's argument to me. He is the one who thinks Turkey is prepared to open up on the Americans. I do not think they are that crazy.

To be fair, I don't think that anymore than I think that we will own Maine again. But if I could turn back time and undo a deed in my life the one thing...the very one thing I would do with that magical power would be to take out the damn article in the sentence and leave it as:<blockquote class="smalltext">Expect war between a Kurdish state and Turkey, then.</blockquote>War in the sense of the poorer periods of India/Pakistan or even Israel/Palestinians...but not the worst. What I really could imagine happening is that America retracts, say, after 2006 and a Democratically held House and perhaps Senate, Iraq goes wobbly and it is like the former Yugoslavia in 1992 or so and Turkey faces internal destablization based on a neighbouring rebellious and schismist Kurdistan. Would Turkey do nothing? Unlikely...even if the US was still involved. And to be frank, is the US going to be a peace force in Iraq strong enough to hold off a civil war? We would be talking a massive increase in the ground force - say 300,000. It would happen only if Powell or a fellow traveller is somehow brought in and the vestiges of the neo-cons are thrown out. No one sees that. So for all the sharp stick pokery, DJ Mix Master, I pretty much agree with ry.

More sad news from Iraq. I have a clear memory of the first days of the civil war in the former Yugoslavia, surprise that there seemed to be rifles coming out of the woodwork, gunfire on a bridge pinning down pedestrians without any idea what was about to happen to Serajevo.

More sad news.