I start to suspect that these 4 were only 'copycats'. There's an article citing Italian police officers who questioned one of the 4 bombers. They quoted him saying 'that the 4 would-be bombers were not out to kill people (Dutch), merely to create panic and fear'. Note: that none of the 4 appeared to be suicide bombers.

Thus examplifying why there is no future in suicide bombing. Sooner or later you have to hit the B-team and we all know how fidgetty they get.

I guess the question is what model of "inclusion", as Al points, actually works. It would appear it is not a state-sponsored separation of cultures within a larger "mosaic", where core values are not shared.

BTW, I see the French are stepping up their deportations/expulsions of hate-spewing imans, French citzenship or no French citzenship. The French are particularly sang froid when it comes to protecting what is viewed to be "French" interests, but they don't seem to garner the same level of criticism for these policies (as they are often lumped in with the so-called "European" model of tolerance) as compared to say, the US. Is this due to the fact there is a growing recognition in Europe that some of the past "multiculturalist" policies haven't quite worked out, given the inability of "old" Europe to include the "new" - where someone from Algeria, for instance, could never be considered to be truly "French", despite living in the country for generations?

These are of course very complicated issues. I think most people would consider that the French model does not work well when it comes to this issue. But France gets less attention than the US generally, and I don't see why it should be any different in this case. France, like most nations, is not, or has not been multi-culturalist in any strong sense, and that may be causing it some problems. I think the Dutch are also having similar problems to France's because they have a minority immigrant population that is visible and separate from the majority population. So there are serious ethnic tensions above and beyond the threat that terror poses. These tensions could also impede police work. A truly multicultural nation has several ethnic groups not two groups living separately with one group being a source of cheap labour. Britain by contrast is more like Canada (that is, it is more or less multi-cultural) and so it's easier to find people who can do the inter-cultural investigative work that needs to be done. But even Canada and Britain have core values.

|some of the past "multiculturalist" policies haven't quite
Multicultural policies have all been declared dead as a horse in Holland. I have no idea what should come in place of the internationally respected "Dutch multicultural society" of the last ten years.
BBC News has a great great article about one of our writers criticising the change of course:

<blockquote>If you accept others as equals, you embrace them unconditionally, now and forever. But if you let them know that you tolerate them, you suggest in the same breath that they are actually an inconvenience, like a nagging pain or an unpleasant odour you are willing to disregard."<br>Author questions Dutch tolerance, BBC News</blockquote>

I'm a pessimist, because I don't know of a solution.

Oh, wait, Marian, I think I'm an optimist! I don't believe there are "serious ethnic tensions" over here in Holland.

<a href="http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1539825,00.html" target="blank">This</a> is an editorial from todays Observer, a leftist paper, that might signal a shift in perception of common sense there. It is the sister paper of the Guardian (the Sunday version of the Guardian)

''This question of what is and what isn't British is crucial. Britain has tilted far too far towards multi-culturalism. We should encourage people to bring their skills, energy, culture and breadth to our country but those we welcome should not be allowed to live in cultural ghettoes. We should not aim to be an umbrella nation sheltering a range of separate ethnic and religious groups but a single nation with far more of a single identity. Core British values should be part of everybody's lives. There should be compulsory English lessons for new arrivals and a comprehensive programme of tuition, backed by significant incentives, for the thousands immigrants, some living in the UK for decades, who speak only Urdu or Arabic. And immigrants need to recognise that rights bring responsibilities. No one has a right to wear a veil in a playground. Faith schools run counter to the building of an inclusive British identity''

I hope I have not offended, alfons, but I've been reading the New Yorker and Salon Magazine which have featured articles on 'ethnic tension' in the Netherlands, in some cases they are also calling it a crisis. Here is a Salon article: http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/12/dutch/index_np.html

It opens with this paragraph:
“The Dutch government Thursday moved to reverse a long tradition as Europe's most liberal haven for immigrants by signaling tougher treatment of foreigners and Muslims and greater powers for security services, in response to the Netherlands' worst ethnic and religious crisis.”

Of course, this may be spin. Maybe it makes people feel better to think that others are in the same ‘tensions’ boat, I don’t know. Misery loves company and many are not so secretly happy to see multiculturalism die.

My understanding from the New Yorker article is that a large proportion of immigrants to the Netherlands in the last few years have been from Morocco (five percent?). So you have a majority population that has been there for some time and belongs to a Euro Protestant tradition and you have another population which is much smaller and from an Islamic tradition as well as some people who are of Turkish origin. You can correct me if I am wrong.

What I was trying to say is that Canada is different than this and its experiment works because there isn’t a polarisation. Canada is not a utopia, but it's not a disaster either despite the naysaying by some and the occasional referendum in Quebec. Most of the credit for things going not too badly has to do with good fortune (i.e. it's an accident) but a little has to do with planning. The accident part goes like this: many of us can trace our history back to someone getting on a boat or a plane at some time and so we are relatively equal in that regard. But there is also an element of planning, our population is broken up into smallish cultural groups with no group having a huge advantage. The proportion of people who cite the British Isles and those who cite France as the home of their ancestors is nearly equal (in the twenty something percent range) with both English and French having an overlapping religion (the majority of people in Canada are Catholic) many of the Anglos are in fact Irish (hence the Catholicism). We also have people from Europe who are neither Anglos nor ‘Francos’ (most of whom speak English so the total pop. speaking English is higher), we have some from Asia and some from the middle east and of course an indigenous population. About twenty percent or so are of 'mixed' heritage (cf CIA factbook).

In any case, ethnic tensions or whatever you want to call them, don't get resolved overnight. If you don’t mind my saying so, since the Netherlands has only had a multi-cultural policy for ten years you are mere novices, you shouldn't give up so easily! The answer, of course, is to bring in more people from elsewhere. It sounds like there is a polarisation taking place between two groups. As the Salon article says it’s a case of us and them. Maybe this polarisation can be balanced off by having more immigrants from other countries coming in.

By the way, I have heard this argument about the word tolerance before. Personally, I think tolerance is a good start. It sure beats intolerance. And I don't think it's necessary or possible to have full understanding of every other person from every other culture. That would be silly. Co-existence is good enough.

I think Marian's on to something: multiculturism may require a big mix of different peoples to really work.

In Canada, MC really only _seriously_ affects three cities: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. I know little of Vancouver, so I won't comment further upon that place. I think MC is much of a failure in Montreal and if (a very big if) there's a terrorist attack in Canada, it'll be in that city. But in Toronto, MC _works_; figuring that out, bottling it up and exporting that could be one of the greatest contributions this place ever makes.

Canada is not a utopia, but it's not a disaster either despite the naysaying by some and the occasional referendum in Quebec. Most of the credit for things going not too badly has to do with good fortune (i.e. it's an accident) but a little has to do with planning.

I think most of the problems in the Netherlands is that most of the population over there think it's actually 'getting full' (as in 'no space') in the country. I've never heard Canadians complaining it was getting 'too full' of immigrants over here: that's either because most people here are immigrants or because of the very fact that there's so much space over here.

I always thought the argument 'of it's getting full in the Netherlands' as a kind of 'subjective'. What is 'full'?

I had a conversation the other day with a Dutch lady who immigrated to Canada 25-30 years ago. She said she misses her family but does not enjoying visiting her homeland anymore because it is too crowded and claustrophobic. In other words, I don't think the answer is for the Netherlands to encourage more immigration to that country. I think, and this applies to all countries experiencing immigration, it goes back to Wayne's post quoting the observer. It's not really a question of assimilation its a question of what makes a place a good place to live. "Welcome to Canada. We are a democracy. If you don't like democracy, please stay away."

Very thoughtful posts, Marian, Alfons, Arthur, Wayne, David, and, of course, Hans -literate, good points and good reading - not much more to add.

Sorry, I think that last post was Al's job!

Rain on the parade? Is this the same "inclusiveness" that produced the london bombers in the first place? I can see how a multicultural police force helps in a multicultural investigation, but something still stinks in Denmark...

Didn't find an email addy for you McCleod, and so I didn't know where to send this and ask for commentary:http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d3aa799f-0e0a-45b3-9a56-2ddea3403741
Anyone else wanna take a whack at it?

Enjoy the vacation!

If I have read news reports correctly, and if such reports are themselves correct, all four of the latter bombers attempted to set off their device. The fact the devices did not detonate almost certainly says more about the devices themselves, their manufacture and the person who made them than about the would be suicide bombers. I fail to see how this makes them the "B-Team". More important, and with regard to another comment here, I find it difficult to believe anything the fellow in Italy now has to say about his motivations given he has every reason to lie in order to delay deportation to the UK. I find it even more difficult to believe anyone could uncritically accept his account of his motivations. Lenin had a useful term for such folk.

Four separate flubs out of four to me says B-team when the A-team hit for 1000. Did they get the mix wrong? Maybe all the good guys in the club were dead by the 21st.

[Ed: <i>snip</i>].

[Ed: <i>snip</i>].

[Ed: <i>snip</i>].

I need no discussion displaying the relative merits of forms of bigotry, gents. And anyone who is dense enough to cite SDA as a source for something else as "whack job" is risking the penalty box.

I need no discussion displaying the relative merits of forms of bigotry, gents.

OK. Lets discuss the boring subject of the rise of the loonie and its effects on the (lets grab a random industry, hmmm, the lumber industry!

I agree it is boring but there is nothing to be gained and few who know anything on the topic on the ground, certainly not the cited morons.