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Ben -

The only thing more irrelevant than what he candidates say at their conventions is what they say during the debates. Remember 2000? Granted 'the world has changed since 9/11' but George W was the man who said America's military would only be used when absolutely necessary, for defense only, and never for nation building. The argument of course is that going into Iraq was necessary and defensive but does anyone really believe that anymore?

Given tha the debate winners are declared with complete disregard for who actually debated the most effectively they just might be more arbitrary and useless than throne speeches.

SayNay? -

On the "is the USA now being affirmed as a Christian democracy rather than a secular one" point Al was making: Dubya's reference to "a nation blessed by God" remains an essential part of the fabric of the belief system in the US and would appear to be nothing new to American politics, amounting to a "shift" or a "new affirmation".

For instance, the Declaration of Independence refers to "Nature's God", the Pledge of Allegiance refers to "One Nation Under God", of course various US currency has the motto "In God We Trust" (everyone else pays cash)and even the flag folding ceremony is laden with references to God.

It can be argued that "God" is generic to all major religions and therefore the reference is not offensive to those who are not of the Judeo-Christian persuasion, but this argument would require that if you are Muslim, for instance, you accept that your "Allah" is one and the same as Dubya's and the Founding Fathers' "God" who particularly "blessed" America. And this argument still "excludes" those who do not share the "one God" belief system.

I suppose that the US will become truly secular when the first US President-elect chooses to be "affirmed", rather than "sworn".

For a kind of funny take on the "God" debate in the US see: http://www.satirewire.com/news/june02/pledge.shtml

Alan -

I have heard much discussion recently on the difference, however, between the God the creator theosophist point of view underlying the 18th century references to God which would be in line with the generic deist view on one hand and, on the other, the very different modern US protestant evangelical point of view. Franklin, Washington and Jefferson would not have personally supported making a state based on personal experience and revelation of Christ in the New Testament (or even just the bits evangelicals use). It is that I think that Dubya was speaking on behalf of and which constitutes change.

SayNay? -

Except that Franklin, Washington and Jefferson et al would have accepted Christ as their "saviour" as the Son of God. While I see your point, Al, I don't think Dubya has changed the "landscape", or meaning of the reference to "God" in US politics, by stating openly that he accepts Christ as his "personal" saviour.

Alan -

I think you are making an assumption but stand to be corrected. I understand that the concept of "personal savior" is a post-Methodist view spreading in popularity as a manner in which to characterize one's Christian faith from the early 1800s revivals. Both the lads of 1776 and Dubya may have been expressing their personal fervour but they I believe that they speak from different ages and different understanding and experience of the fervour. One other thing - all the early lads were Masons and the masonic imagery is much more prevalent in the early documents, mottos and images than anything comparable to modern evangelical protestantism.

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